Showing posts with label Reddit. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Reddit. Show all posts

Monday, June 22, 2026

Avoid The Algorithm, And Follow Me Directly! (Troubleshooting Current Social Media Setbacks)

Folks who have been watching my saga recently (detailed in my post Another Social Media Struggle (Reddit Has Decided To Kick Me In The Teeth, And I Could Use Some Help)) have likely noticed that one of the major challenges that every creator in the world is dealing with is that we simply cannot reach our potential audience. And the reason we can't seem to reach people is because the social media sites and groups that used to help us connect are now throttling our signals, restricting our ability to post, and trusting to bots to determine what kind of posts are allowed, and when an account needs to be shut off... even when it's wrong.

And while I'm taking several steps at present (seeking out new Discords that might appreciate my work, coming up with a fresh Reddit strategy, trying to figure out why the hell Facebook stops me from making posts anywhere but my own personal pages, etc.), there is one thing that I would like all of you reading this to do for me. I would like you to please go to my Patreon and my Ko-Fi pages, and subscribe/follow me there.
 
If you want to tip me or support me for what I'm doing, I appreciate that. But mostly I'm going to be using those accounts a LOT more, because they seem to be some of the only places that I can actually let people who enjoy my work see what the hell it is I'm making.

Because a lot of what I'm putting out is getting lost in the screaming void, and I'd like you to see it.

But before I get into the meat of today's post, remember, don't forget to sign up for my newsletter to get all my updates right in your inbox. Also, if you've got a bit of spare cash that you'd like to use to help keep the wheels turning, consider becoming a Patreon patron! Also, be sure you're following all of my followables, check out my LinkTree.

Lastly, for hundreds of extra articles on gaming, weird history, and for more free fiction, check out my Vocal archive, too!

You Get A Direct Feed (And It's Technically Free)!


The entire point of social media, from a creator's perspective, is to connect you with your audience, and your potential audience. As someone whose hair is more gray than not these days, I remember when it basically did this, too. I've quoted the numbers before, but a decade or so ago I could get hundreds of impressions from Facebook, thousands from Reddit, and tens of thousands on a good day from Digg or Stumbleupon (both of which have gone down into the dark depths of websites murdered by AI slop). These days, though, it feels like the same 17 people see all my posts on whatever social media I'm part of, and when I do manage to fly through the storm of algorithm interference it's like trying to get an emergency message to someone through a time machine.

Dearest Allies, I request your aid in this time of dire need...

Which is why I wanted to take this week's post to ask everyone who made it this far to follow me on Patreon and Ko-Fi. Because while both of those are crowdfunding websites, you can follow me for free on both of them, and get notified when I share things on them (it's usually once or twice a day in the evenings, so not a huge inbox stuffer). And I'm asking this because, just like my newsletter that I mentioned above, it's one of the only ways for you to actually see and hear what I'm doing without the algorithm getting in the way, waiting for moderators to approve a post (which can take hours, days, or weeks), or depending on your For You Page to decide that you get to see stuff that I've made, as opposed to your 19th advertisement of the day.
 
My hope is that if I can get enough folks onboard with this request that I can get direct feedback from people who want to be in my audience the way that I used to on the sites that have slammed all their doors, and which are burying creators under restrictions and inertia. Because I post dozens of things (sometimes as much as a hundred posts or more) every day... and there are a lot of people who have tried to follow me who just don't hear about it because the algorithm won't slide it into their feeds.
 
So get a direct line, and let me know what you think of my work today!
 
Lastly, speaking of Reddit, there are two subreddits that I moderate that I would like to invite folks to. I am the moderator of Tabletop Homebrew! So if you have things you'd like to share, or if you want to see the sort of things creators are making and sharing, stop in, get comfortable, and take a look around. We'd be happy to have you.

Like, Follow, and Stay in Touch!


That's all for this week's Moon Pope Monday. To stay on top of all my content and releases, make sure you subscribe to my newsletter at the bottom of the page!

Again, for more of my work, check out my Vocal archive, and stop by the Azukail Games YouTube channel, or my additional audio dramas over on The A.L.I.C.E. Files! Or if you'd prefer to read some of my books, like my dystopian sci-fi thriller Old Soldiers, my hardboiled gangland noir series starring a bruiser of a Maine Coon with Marked Territory and Painted Cats, my sword and sorcery novel Crier's Knife or my latest short story collection The Rejects, then head over to My Amazon Author Page!

To stay on top of all my latest releases, follow me on Blue SkyFacebookTumblrTwitter, and now Pinterest as well! To support my work, consider Buying Me a Ko-Fi, or heading to The Literary Mercenary's Patreon page to become a regular, monthly patron. That one helps ensure you get more Improved Initiative, and it means you'll get my regular, monthly giveaways as a bonus!

Monday, June 15, 2026

Another Social Media Struggle (Reddit Has Decided To Kick Me In The Teeth, And I Could Use Some Help)

We've all heard that philosophical argument about how if a tree falls in the forest, but there's no one around to see it or hear it, did it actually fall? Well, that's kind of what being a creator is like. Because it doesn't matter how amazing your art is, how engaging your book might be, or how deep and thoughtful your video essays are, because if no one knows they exist, they can't actually become fans of your work. And since most creators don't have money to spend on advertisements, or doing dozens upon dozens of conventions where they take a loss every time as they try to build an audience, we rely on social media to get the word out about what we do.

And while social media enshittification has been hitting hard, I've been managing to tread water... until recently. Because the last piece of driftwood I was clinging to seems to have snapped underneath me, and now I'm back to trying not to drown.

And this, of course, involves the hive of scum and villainy that goes by the name Reddit.

A hand up would be deeply appreciated right now...

But before I get into the meat of today's post, remember, don't forget to sign up for my newsletter to get all my updates right in your inbox. Also, if you've got a bit of spare cash that you'd like to use to help keep the wheels turning, consider becoming a Patreon patron! Also, be sure you're following all of my followables, check out my LinkTree.

Lastly, for hundreds of extra articles on gaming, weird history, and for more free fiction, check out my Vocal archive, too!

The Social Media Saga (And Why This Is Such A Problem)


The official term for what we're all struggling with these days is Platform Decay, but most of us refer to it as Enshittification. Essentially social media started off as a free, functional way for us to keep in touch with our friends, family, and creators, celebrities, etc. that we liked to follow, and it mostly worked. But over the past several years it's been deliberately sabotaged, twisted, and made impossible to use as a creator (and nearly impossible to use for regular people, too). I talked about this more in-depth in The Reason Social Media Sucks For Everyone These Days (Not Just Creators) a while back, for those who missed it.

For those who like numbers, I have a couple of Before and After averages to share, from about 10 years ago, and today. Keep in mind that my subscriber count has only gone up between these two time periods, so if anything I should have held steady, instead of decreasing to a fraction of engagement.
 
- Average Facebook spread used to net between 400 and 1,000 impressions. Now it's barely 25.
- Average Twitter blast used to net between 100 and 250 impressions. Now it's less than 20.
- StumbleUpon netted me between 50 and 500 impressions. The site is unusable anymore.
- Digg would net between 25 and 1,000 impressions. AI slop broke the site entirely, and it's closed.
 
For sites that aren't listed, Tumblr and LinkedIn both have significantly lowered engagement. Pinterest is a ghost town that's jam-packed with AI slop. Google+ is gone, of course, and sites like MeWe have never been worth more than a few dozen views. Blue Sky has never been great for creators (though it's quite a nice platform for journalists and news creators), and places like Discord and Mastadon have no discoverability because all the servers are separate, with no way to cross-pollinate.

And in the midst of all of that, Reddit was a website that has been chugging along. You could even keep using the old version of the site, which made it easy to see and understand at a glance what was happening. My current Reddit account has over a quarter million karma (not bragging, just pointing out the amount of positive interaction I've had on the site), and it's been active for 11 years.

Then I was shadowbanned last week. No warning, no explanation, just POOF, your account is gone. I appealed, and got it back, but the issue I was facing was that even though the decision was made by a random bot (and was immediately overturned by a human), being shadowbanned immediately hid all of my submissions to the website.

So while my karma count was still intact, over a decade of posts were just swept under the rug, and unable to be seen by users. And while I don't usually use language quite this strong around here, this incident has fucked me as a creator... and to make it worse, at time of writing, I was randomly shadowbanned again, likely because a bot just decided that I'd crossed an unspoken line and had to be removed, even though nothing about my behavior has changed in a decade on the site, and it's never been a problem before today.

Why This Is Such A Big Damn Problem


The reason this is a massive problem for me is two fold. The first is fairly obvious; if I'm shadowbanned on Reddit (or if I keep getting shadowbanned by AI-driven bots) then I cannot share links to either my work, or anyone else's work. I try to maintain the balance and not just talk about my stuff all the time, and I mix it up with videos, RPGs, etc. by other creators that I enjoy, and think more people should hear about.

However, I want to circle back around to how it has hidden a decade of my submissions, essentially making them unusable. Put another way, that's somewhere between 50,000 and 100,000 posts just poofed out of existence like a Thanos snap. That's also a low-balled guess as to just how many posts I've made over the past 11 years.

If you want to know what that's worth, most days when I check my DTRPG earnings, I had between $10 and $25. That's not an amazing income, but it adds up at the end of the month, and it paid most of my half of my rent. Ever since I was shadowbanned, and all those posts were removed? I'm making somewhere between $3 and $8 a day. This past weekend I had the first day in 4 years where I didn't sell a single thing on DTRPG at all, and it's directly correlated with this decision.

This shadowbanning didn't remove any of the blog entries I'd written, of course. It didn't delete articles or videos. It just made all those things less visible, effectively slamming the door on people randomly stumbling across my work while running searches or browsing the site. And again, if people don't see this blog, my videos, my supplements, etc., then they can't interact with them, which means I can't pay my bills.
 
EDIT: Apparently it's just regular banned, as my account was basically shuttered up. There's no "shadow" about the whole process. 

And since no other sites are working either... you see where this is going...

The bigger kick in the nuts here is that while Reddit can absolutely erase over a decade of submissions to the site on the word of a bot, it can't restore them. You basically have to ask the subreddit mods to pretty please go through the removed posts and reapprove them, or resubmit those posts. Mods are not willing to do this, and certainly not to the extent that would be required for some of the subs I regularly post in where there are hundreds (potentially thousands) of posts going back for years (since some I posted in weekly, and others I posted in daily). And while there's nothing stopping me from resubmitting my posts (except the site's bots deciding that me submitting things is suspicious), I built up that 11 year archive organically. I didn't just show up all day, every day blasting my own signal for hours at a time. I shared my own stuff, yes. And then I shared actual plays that I'd seen. Or I commented on a topic. Or I told everybody about this other game, supplement, etc. that I'd seen. Or I shared bundles, such as the Owen Stephens Summer Survival Spectacular to help Owen Stephens pay the bills for his fight against cancer. You get the idea.

You can't just replace all those posts in a few months, or even a year. It took me 11 years to submit them in the first place, it would take me a decade to get back to that point. And even after that decade of posting, assuming everything went perfectly and I wasn't randomly shadowbanned, I still wouldn't have my archive restored. Because you see there were a lot of subreddits that I was no longer allowed to post in, but they still had all my previous posts acting as one more place someone might stumble across me... those are gone, and cannot be replaced.

So... yeah. I was already trying to crawl out of the muck, and now because an overzealous collection of 1s and 0s decided I wasn't up to their secret standards, I've now been kicked in the teeth, and thrown back down into some fairly desperate circumstances as a result.

What I'm Going To Do (And How You Can Help)


Wallowing isn't going to help me, especially since I need to get back on my feet before yet more bills come due. Unfortunately, there's only a few things I can do. First and foremost, I'm trying to appeal the shadowbans, to get some statements from the site about what's happening, and to stop this cycle from happening again. I'm also looking for alternative sites, Discord servers, and communities where I can make up at least some of the lost audience potential. And, lastly, I'm going to keep making stuff for people to enjoy, and hope that I can overwhelm the algorithms with the sheer volume of projects I'm churning out.

I don't really have any other options.

However, I'm basically at the mercy of you all. I'm in the Colosseum fighting for my life, and I need the crowd to roar in my favor so that I can be allowed to live and fight another day. So if you made it this far, I have a list of things you can do to help me for free, and a list of things you can do to help that will cost a bit of money... not much, though. As art goblins go, I'm a fairly cheap pet.

So, without further ado...

How You Can Help For Free


Subscribe To The Azukail Games YouTube Channel (where I contribute video content)
Subscribe To The A.L.I.C.E. Files (an audio drama channel I launched with Alice Liddell)
- Read my articles on Vocal.Media (every read puts a penny in my pocket)
- Share my articles, videos, RPG supplements, and anything else I make on your own social media pages (and if you're a Reddit user, tell your favorite subs about stuff I make out of spite)!

How You Can Help If You Have A Budget


- Buy Some of My TTRPG Supplements (link goes to a pin board, but you could also search "Neal Litherland" on DTRPG to get the full 200+ list of things I've made)
- Buy Yourself A Tub of Dubby (use the code LITERARYMERCENARY for 10% off this powdered energy drink)

The reason I put all of this out there is that I literally do not care how my bills get paid. If 50,000 people decide to buy copies of my hardboiled cat novels Marked Territory and Painted Cats, then I'm going to pause a lot of projects to write a third installment in that series. If a bunch of people decide to support me on Patreon, then I'm going to make sure my blogs are polished up, and that everyone is getting their money's worth. If a couple thousand people decide they want to get my RPG Army Men: A Game of Tactical Plastic, then I'd focus on expanding that game, or if folks picked up supplements like The Blade Itself: Corrupt Equipment For Hunter: The Vigil, Like A Good Neighbor - Portraying True Fae in Your Chronicle, or Night Horrors: Primordial Peerage, I'd put a lot more time and energy into extra content for Hunter, Changeling, Beast, or other spheres of the Chronicles of Darkness.

And, of course, if folks want to see more of The A.L.I.C.E. Files, I'd be making bigger, longer, and more complicated soundscapes to tell some of my rather... involved stories.


This whole situation has put me in something of a bind, but I'm not just sitting here twiddling my thumbs hoping things get solved. If you can help, please do so, because I need every hand up I can get. Even if you just follow my Patreon as a free supporter to stay up-to-date, or you just subscribe to the YouTube channels, or share my supplements online when you see them, it makes a difference. And if a few hundred individuals who think their efforts won't matter all pitch in, then you're going to be a damn potent force.

As always, stay tuned for more updates, and thank you in advance to everyone who helps me stop this slide toward the cliff's edge before I go over.

Like, Follow, and Stay in Touch!


That's all for this week's Moon Pope Monday. To stay on top of all my content and releases, make sure you subscribe to my newsletter at the bottom of the page!

Again, for more of my work, check out my Vocal archive, and stop by the Azukail Games YouTube channel, or my additional audio dramas over on The A.L.I.C.E. Files! Or if you'd prefer to read some of my books, like my dystopian sci-fi thriller Old Soldiers, my hardboiled gangland noir series starring a bruiser of a Maine Coon with Marked Territory and Painted Cats, my sword and sorcery novel Crier's Knife or my latest short story collection The Rejects, then head over to My Amazon Author Page!

To stay on top of all my latest releases, follow me on Blue SkyFacebookTumblrTwitter, and now Pinterest as well! To support my work, consider Buying Me a Ko-Fi, or heading to The Literary Mercenary's Patreon page to become a regular, monthly patron. That one helps ensure you get more Improved Initiative, and it means you'll get my regular, monthly giveaways as a bonus!

Monday, December 11, 2023

How To Help The Creators You Love This Holiday Season!

The holidays are upon us once again, and now that Spookyween and Turkey Day are behind us, we move onto the expensive one. However, with everyone out there getting their last minute shopping trips in, I wanted to take a moment to remind folks out there that independent creators need your help more than ever around this time of year.

So please, take a moment, and consider what you can do to help support the TTRPG creators, writers, artists, YouTubers, and others you depend on for entertainment and content so that we will still be here once 2024 rolls around, and we can keep giving you what you've come to expect from us.

Any and all help you can provide is much appreciated.

Before we get into the nitty gritty this week, don't forget to sign up for my weekly newsletter to get all my updates right in your inbox. Also, if you've got a bit of spare cash that you'd like to use to help keep the wheels turning, consider becoming a Patreon patron! Also, be sure you're following all of my followables, check out my LinkTree.

Lastly, for hundreds of extra articles on gaming, weird history, and for more free fiction, check out my Vocal archive, too!

The Struggles of The Year


Being a creative professional is no cakewalk. We're called "starving artists" for a reason, after all. However, 2023 has basically been kicking most of us in the stomach while we're trying to get up off of our hands and knees... and a majority of this is related to recent changes in the social media landscape, and the fresh set of hellish problems this has given all of us to overcome.

What was once a boon has turned to poison in our mouths.

At the top of the list, we have the dumpster fire that Twitter has become. This website was a central gathering place for authors, RPG creators, and YouTubers (along with a huge number of other creative professionals), and it has been absolutely gutted since the owner-who-shall-not-be-named acquired it. This completely destroyed the platform that a lot of us had built over years of time, and even those of us who didn't use Twitter as our main source of social media promotion still felt the impact as it damaged all of our efforts to share our creations with an enthused and engaged audience. It still exists, but only as a shadow of its former self.

That would have been bad enough, but then things got worse.

This past spring, Facebook underwent some major changes to how the site works. While we've always had to fight the algorithm to get seen on that site, it's been absolute mess for most of 2023. Only a handful of posts actually get through into groups, and the rest are pushed into spam folders that many admins don't even see, effectively throttling your signal as a creator. On top of that, the site has grown even more restrictive with who sees your posts on your personal or business account, with the latter prodding creators to buy a signal boost with every post we make if we want our followers to actually see them.

Even Reddit hasn't been immune to this. Dozens of subreddits were shut down over the summer, and there were blackout protests over the tools being removed from the moderators. The list of websites and content varieties that the site's spam bots automatically removes grows daily, or so it seems, and there are several communities that were once oases that are now dry as deserts, as far as creators are concerned.

When you add in the massive surge in generative engines that are plagiarizing work left and right, the sectioning off of audiences under platforms like Discord and Mastadon, and how even the YouTube algorithm is making it more difficult for smaller creators to get their voices heard, the end result is that only those people who already had a large, vibrant following are still being seen and reacted to... and even they aren't immune to the squeeze being put on all of us by platforms that are getting more and more restrictive by the day.

What this means is that our reach has been cut, our views, our reads, and our sales (to say nothing of patronage and sponsorship) is drying up all across the board because no one can find us, and attempts to actually get seen are shut down almost before they begin. And if no one follows us and supports us, then creators simply cannot afford to keep making things.

Direct Support is The Best Support


If you want to help the creators you care about keep a roof over their heads, and food on the table, there are some specific actions you can take to make that happen. Not only that, but you should do as many of these things as you possibly can, because we need all the help we can get!

First and foremost... buy our merch!

Seriously... this is the MOST important thing you can do.

You've likely heard the numbers recently regarding how Weird Al Yankovic, who had millions of streams on Spotify, was paid $12 for all of that listening time. That is the unfortunate reality that a lot of creators are currently dealing with. We might have gigantic numbers when it comes to pages read on Kindle Direct, or a huge number of reads on our blogs, or a massive amount of streams... and when the year is over, all of that effort is good for a sandwich. Whereas if someone pays to download one of Al's albums? Or buys a tee shirt, or other piece of merch? That single sale likely pays him as much (if not more) than 80 million streams on Spotify.

So whether you buy an album, a tee shirt, a novel, a TTRPG supplement, a patch, a pin, or even a sticker, you will have done more to support a creator with that single purchase than if you left their podcast or YouTube channel running in the background every hour of every day for an entire month!

And if a given creator doesn't have something for sale that you want? Well, you can sign up to become a Patreon patron, or buy them a Ko-Fi to essentially just put a tip in their jar so they can keep things going. This is especially important for creators who produce mostly free content (like my blogs, YouTube videos, etc.), because it's a form of direct support that has immediate consequences for us.

Incidentally, check me out at The Literary Mercenary on both Patreon and on Ko-Fi if you want to help me weather the holidays in one piece!

There Are Other Things You Can Do, Too


If you don't have the spare scratch to buy merch and leave tips for every creator, does that mean you just can't help anyone? Of course not! However, it is important to remember that these steps are the next tier down... so they do help, but not as much as just giving artists money to help pay their bills.

We must do battle with the algorithm.

First and foremost, do interact with the stuff made by creators you love. If someone makes a video or writes an article you like, watch it, upvote it, leave a comment (even if you're just saying, "I'm so excited to see where this series goes from here!"), and share it on your own social media pages, or in your groups. If you bought a book or a TTRPG supplement, do all of these things, but also leave a review on Amazon, Drive Thru RPG, Goodreads, or whatever other platforms you can find it on!

As I explained in Leveraging The Algorithm: How You Can Help Creators You Love Get Seen, while your individual interaction may be very small, every one of these things helps meaningfully boost a creator's signal. Each interaction makes us more popular in the eyes of the algorithm, and that makes it more likely to work for us, rather than against us, helping us actually reach more people. The more people we reach, the more fans we can find, and the more interactions we will get... it's even possible that we'll make more sales, too!

Perhaps most importantly, though, is to remember that even if the traffic we generate doesn't pay us a lot of money (whether it's a Spotify stream, a Twitch chat, or a YouTube video), creators who have a sizable audience are also the ones who get approached by companies with sponsorship deals. So while we might only get a handful of dollars in exchange for hundreds of thousands of views, a sponsor might pay us a thousand or more to mention their product, or even to create a piece of content around it to help promote it to our audience, if we have enough reliable eyeballs on us.

I talked about this back in Unfortunate Facts: Without Sponsorship, Most Artists Can't Eat, for those who want a more detailed breakdown.

Lastly, make sure that you're connecting with the creators you want to support so that you don't miss when they're releasing new stuff, or working on new projects. Whatever social media sites they're on, follow their pages. If they're on video platforms, subscribe to their channels, and turn on your notifications. If they have a newsletter, subscribe to it (and make sure you actually get it, and it isn't just being eaten by your spam folder).

We don't ask you to do these things for funsies... we do it because these are literally the lengths we have to go to in order to make sure our audience actually sees the posts we make, and that we aren't being throttled to death by the algorithm!

Where You Can Support Me!


So, everything I've said up to this point could apply to any creator out there, and I fully support everyone who has read this far in going and helping as many artists as you can so we can all get through the holidays, and start 2024 off on the right foot!

But if you're someone who specifically wants to help me, first of all, thank you. Secondly, please consider the following:


First, check out the Azukail Games YouTube channel, which hosts a lot of my audio dramas, in addition to the shows Speaking of Sundara, Discussions of Darkness, and now Tabletop Mercenary! We're about a thousand watched hours out from getting monetized by YouTube, so please put on a playlist while you're wrapping presents, or just trying to avoid awkward family discussions!

Also, If you want even more content (particularly bigger, more expansive audio dramas) you should also subscribe to my Rumble account, The Literary Mercenary!



If videos aren't your thing, though, I've got plenty of other options for you!

For example, in addition to my blogs The Literary Mercenary, and Improved Initiative, I also have a Vocal Media archive! It just hit 300 articles this week, and I make $6 for every 1,000 reads those articles get. So if you want something to scroll through on your lunch break, consider checking out some of my stuff over there, and sharing it around if you find something you really like!

And, of course, you can always buy some of the stuff I've written!

My novels and short story collections are all listed on my Amazon author page, and there should be some new releases getting added there in the near future! These are particularly nice stocking stuffers, which is worth keeping in mind this time of year. Additionally, I currently have 168 titles on Drive Thru RPG, which vary from World/Chronicles of Darkness, to DND 5E, to Pathfinder, general genre supplements, modules, and more! Whether you buy one, a few, or a slew of them, that would go a long way to keeping the wolf from the door!

Lastly, you can follow me on all my social media spaces. Facebook, Twitter, Reddit, and Pinterest are the places where I'm most active, but you can also get a bunch of my news and updates by checking out my Link.tree, or subscribing to my bi-monthly newsletter... that's twice a month, not once every two months, to be sure you know what you're in for!

Like, Follow, and Stay in Touch!


That's all for this week's Moon Pope Monday. To stay on top of all my content and releases, make sure you subscribe to my newsletter at the bottom of the page!

Again, for more of my work, check out my Vocal archive, and stop by the Azukail Games YouTube channel, or my Daily Motion channel!. Or if you'd prefer to read some of my books, like my dystopian sci-fi thriller Old Soldiers, my sword and sorcery novel Crier's Knife or my latest short story collection The Rejects, then head over to My Amazon Author Page!

To stay on top of all my latest releases, follow me on FacebookTumblrTwitter, and now Pinterest as well! To support my work, consider Buying Me a Ko-Fi, or heading to The Literary Mercenary's Patreon page to become a regular, monthly patron. That one helps ensure you get more Improved Initiative, and it means you'll get my regular, monthly giveaways as a bonus!